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Overcoming debt and beating the odds

Eva Forde
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Digital nomad Eva Forde wasn’t always moving around. At a certain point in her life, she was living in Jamaica, destitute and hungry, in extreme debt. But one day, she felt empowered to conquer it all, and she’s still at it.

TAMAR: Hi, everybody, I am so excited to be introducing Eva Forde, who I don’t really know yet. And I will be about to meet her. She was introduced to me by one of my past podcast guests, Sasha Raskin. So, I’m so excited that you’re here. Thank you so much for coming on.


EVA FORDE: Yeah, so great to be here. And thank you for inviting me.


TAMAR: Yeah, yeah. So, tell it. Everybody told me because I don’t know anything. So, I will tell you, Eva wanted to prepare for this. And I said, I don’t want to prepare for this. I know that sometimes I come with a little bit of background context, I wanted to make this blink. I hope you won’t regret it.


EVA FORDE: But let’s keep fingers crossed.

TAMAR:  You’ll be great.

EVA FORDE: You’ll be great as well. And here’s the thing. I wanted to not so much prepare, because I show up and I connect.

TAMAR: Right.

EVA FORDE: But what’s important to me, the whole goal of  what you do, your mission is about the self-care, right. So, for me, there’s no better self-care or meaning in life than connection. And so, it was really not even so much to prepare for the podcast, but just to really connect with you. Because I always want to make sure that the people that I engage with in life, whether it’s at the grocery store, or on a podcast, that there’s some sort of meaning or that it’s just not meaningless. I want to leave people with, like, “Oh, I could have had a VA as opposed to Eva.”


TAMAR: So, I will say you’re highlighting my shortcoming. I guess, in the context of trying to be, like a hustler in so many different ways. It’s extraordinarily impossible to carve out too much time. But at the same time, I think you’re right. And I want anybody who’s ever been on the podcast to realize that I don’t want it to necessarily be a one time, a one-off. I want to maintain that connection. So, I appreciate you highlighting that. Because it’s very difficult. And I’ve been interviewed by lots of people in podcasts in my life as well. And I don’t even know who they are almost.


TAMAR: So, I don’t want to fall into that same trap. But I know that in a way I might be.


EVA FORDE: Yeah, I don’t even think it’s about remembering who people are but getting into the story. My story, at least the part where I started to pay attention to meaning was when my mom passed away, and I was 10 years old. And she was given eight months to live with cancer. And when it seemed imminent that she was going to pass she spent the last few months of that reconnecting with people who I guess there had been any miscommunication or misunderstanding or just trying to make things right. And I remember thinking as a kid, I never want to have to live where I have to look back and regret. And so, I want to be intentional about how I go through life. And it’s not so much that I’m Mother Teresa, No, that’s not it.


TAMAR: It’s  great, it’s admittedly a very, very powerful sentiment. And I’m missing some words here. I mean, there’s a lot of ways to embody that’s particularly sensitive, and it’s extraordinarily important. I think it’s great that you decided to do that. And I don’t want to say, “Oh, I wish I could do it more. I love doing it. It’s just how many hours are there; the day ultimately is my poor excuse for that. But at the same time again, it’s such an amazing thing, and I totally appreciate it.


EVA FORDE: Yeah, I think what has reminded me of it or what keeps it in the forefront of my mind is I think it’s come from the yoga movement where you’re being still and you are being mindful. So, like the mindfulness movement, or just how mindful are we, where we are in our consciousness when we’re brushing our teeth or when we’re picking up the phone for an unexpected call or when we’re interacting with that person at the grocery store? Like, are we mindful of how we’re walking through the world.

TAMAR: Right.

EVA FORDE: And, again, don’t always get it right. But I think, especially in this climate that we’re in now, it’s important to I think, be mindful of how we show up. And not only how we show up, but what’s going on for other people. And for me, it’s important to give everybody a break because I feel like everybody’s doing the best that they can with the experiences that they have. And I know you want to hear about my story.

TAMAR: Yeah.

EVA FORDE: So, I’ll tell you.

TAMAR: Before you share your story, tell us where you’re physically located right now. And I mean, what you do and then you can tell us your story. How about that?


Yeah, sure. So physically, at the moment of this recording, I am in West Palm Beach, Florida. However, by the time you publish it, I might be in Atlanta. I might be back in New York. I’m coming from living in Jamaica for the last 15 years. I’ve got some Jamaican roots and my master’s degree in international social work. And so, I went to Jamaica, to get my feet wet for a year or two. But that was now almost 16 years ago. And the pandemic is what kind of brought me back to the States. And since being in the States, well, I’ll say prior to coming to the States, I wanted a lifestyle where I could be wherever I wanted to be whenever I wanted to be there. And I had not been able to experience that lifestyle until I’ve come back to the States now and just had the fortune to be able to travel and see family that I haven’t really spent time with over the last 15 years and eat great food and just keep going farther south and stay warm.


TAMAR: Good for you. I grew up in Hollywood, Florida, not far from my parents. My parents are actually in Boca.

EVA FORDE: Oh, cool.

TAMAR: Yeah.


EVA FORDE: Nice. Yeah, right down the road,

TAMAR: Basically. Yeah.

EVA FORDE: That’s awesome. Yeah. So, what’s the next question?


TAMAR: Oh, yeah. So, what are you doing? What’s your life like, right now?  And then make that foray into your story like, career, career wise, especially if it’s on, like an unlikely trajectory? How did that all come about?


EVA FORDE: Yeah. So, I think one of the things I appreciate about growing up, being a grown up now, and being an adult adulting is that when I was younger, I used to think that people were just kind of one dimensional, and you have a career, and that’s who you are. And that’s what you do forever and ever and ever. Amen. And one of the things I recognize now, not only in myself, but in others is that we as humans are so dynamic. And your accountant can also be a prolific painter and they’re off in their off time. Or the person that helps you do your hair could also maybe have millions of dollars in investments. I think it’s just so amazing. So, for me, my story, for the most part, may sound like just one track, but I’ve had many different interests. And what I mean by that is that I’ve got a bachelor’s and a master’s degree in social work. And I got the bachelors after not knowing what the heck I wanted to do with my life. And so, I did two years of college with no direction. And then I had a cousin that said, “You should be a missionary. I went to this Christian College, be a missionary, I ended up doing that, and going to Taiwan. I was there for a year. And when I came back, I had figured out that I wanted to help people. And so, I did my bachelor’s in social work and then because I’m originally from Huntsville, Alabama. I don’t know if it’s a small town. It’s really growing now.

TAMAR: Yeah. But you’ve heard it, once you’ve heard of it. It’s a little larger.


EVA FORDE: Yeah, that’s true. But when I was growing up, you had the black community and the white community. At least that’s what I saw. And I don’t know if people could tell anyway, I’m a black woman. But I went to a black church. So, I was very much surrounded by blacks; Christian, Southern, traditional values and norms. But then I would go to school with people in the white community, white traditional values, Christian. And it was a lovely upbringing, it was very safe. I was sheltered. It was nice, but kind of getting into social work made me think, “Okay, there’s more to life than just this kind of just black and white kind of everybody getting along on the surface.” And so, I said, “I want to do something really radical.” At that point, I had already been to Taiwan for the year. And I said “I gotta get the farthest from the south as I can to continue my studies.” And so, I moved to New York. And that’s actually where I met Sasha. I’m so glad I did. Like that was one of the best decisions in my life. Because I think New York is like the song says, “If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.” And it’s just such a dynamic place.

TAMAR: And diversity is amazing.


EVA FORDE: Yes. And that is the surprise. That is the best part. And that’s what I wanted and craved and loved. And that’s what I got. I continued my studies in social work, and I thought that was going to be my life. I thought I was just going to be a social worker forever and ever. Fast forward, maybe 12 years or so, maybe less than that, I had burnt out. I had just felt like you said, everybody has a story where you maybe have a crappy boss or supervisor. I was in Jamaica, developing country, no money. Plus, I had gone to the school in New York, mounting debt. And I was just done. I was done, done, done. And I ended up making some really bad financial decisions. That landed me in more debt. And I just really felt, like everybody, or a lot of people feel like, “What the hell is this life?” I was sold a bag of rocks. They talk about the American dream. And when you get down to it, you’re just paying bills, and then you can’t pay bills. And it was just really overwhelming. So, I got to a point like, I had no electricity. I had food, like I was really ashamed to leave my house. When I say leave my house, I don’t mean go shopping or anything. I was ashamed to like, open my door and let people see me because I literally have nothing. And I just assumed that people could tell that. And it got so bad that one day. Thankfully, I was living in Jamaica, so I didn’t have a heating bill. But one day, I was like, “Okay, this is ridiculous. There has to be food somewhere. I’m going to kill something.” I took a knife from the kitchen, and I went in the backyard. I was like, “I don’t care what moves, I’m going to eat something, like this is terrible. And it’s so funny. I had not been outside and so long. Like, I might go out for a minute or two, but I hadn’t like been in the yard for so long. And my grandmother had left me this property. But I had not been out for so long. That I didn’t realize there was a banana tree that had a huge bunch of bananas, green bananas on them.

TAMAR: Oh, wow.

EVA FORDE: So, I’m like, “Oh, thank God, I don’t have to kill anything. I could kill these banana trees.” Yeah. And luckily, I had a gas stove and had gas because I hadn’t been cooking because I had nothing to cook. So, boiled some bananas. And I had been reading like financial books and realizing that there were things that I did not know about money, which was what had landed me in so much debt. And one of the books that I had been reading was called Think and Grow Rich.

 TAMAR: And it’s a great book.

EVA FORDE: Yeah, right. There are tons of examples in there of people who didn’t have money, but they used their ingenuity, they used their time and their skills and relationships, and they pieced things together and became rich over time. And so, when I found that bunch of bananas, I was so excited because I said yes, this is my bottom. I will never be lower than I am at this moment. Thank God I could finally look up and I said, “This is my bottom.

TAMAR: What a great story.”

EVA FORDE: Is it? I don’t know.


TAMAR: It is, it is. Oh, it is hard. In the moment. You never believe that there’s ever going to be but you realize you made that revelation. You’re like, “this is it.”


EVA FORDE: Right. Only because I had been reading and I had time to read, right? So, I was like, “Okay, this is my story. This is my bottom. So, after I cooked bananas, I was like, “Okay, I’m going to call this my bottom, what’s the next step? Up.” And I called some friends of mine, an older couple who were well off, they were retired just up the road. And I didn’t realize that they were in the States for an extended period of time receiving health care, health care treatment, and they said, “Eva, go to the house, eat whatever you want, stay as long as you need to.” And I ended up staying there for like three months and got back on my feet. I was so grateful. And I was just excited because like you said, I had been on this journey, and recognized that  there’s another way for me to live that isn’t burnt out and stressed out and with no money. And I was going to figure it out. And so, I just committed to learn as much as I could. And then I said, “Okay, I finally realized what we call lack mentality or poverty mentality was part instilled from the profession of social work.” I said “Okay, I’m going to figure this stuff out how to turn this around.” And then I’m going to go back to the Social Work community and tell them what I’ve learned. And since then, I’ve created a platform called rich social worker, and it’s a YouTube channel, a website. Now I coach social workers on how to improve their money, mindset, their wealth,  stop blaming the system for not having what they don’t have. And not just that, but like to have that self-care, that balance. I was so passionate about it, I wrote a book, I don’t know if you know this, but I wrote a book that great universities use, called How Not to Practice Social Work. And the whole premise of the book is like, you’ve got to take care of yourself first, before you can take care of anyone else. And if you don’t have the money, you can’t take care of yourself, if you are working yourself to the bone and you’re mentally drained, you can’t take care of yourself. You can’t live this life of what I now see as abundance and fulfillment you’re stressed out, burnt out and not being focused and intentional on you. So, that’s my story.


TAMAR: It’s a great story. Yeah, so I actually have some tie ins, but I don’t know where to go with this and in many different directions. I actually have this potentially, and I’m debating how I should do it. I’m actually going to pull it up. I have this social post that I want to make that opens myself up to tremendous amount of vulnerability. So, this is a quote that I’ve written, it’s not exactly the same, but it sort of is, and I just want to know what you’re like. I know this is a little bit of a deviation but at the same time, it’s an interesting time if anyone’s heard my story and it’s long but I became dependent on somebody and I basically poured my life into that person because I, after a while is already weak from postpartum depression. So, I had written this and I would love to get your perspective because this is something that I’ve always wondered about social workers. How do you separate your emotions from your clients is really the question, the short version. The TLDR and the longer version is and had written this like how do you become a good reliable friend when you are vulnerable? My weakness is getting emotionally invested in people who have emotional issues, I go all in at a significant cost. I become addicted to the high I get when I feel like I’ve helped them and it breaks me. I’ve lost years of my life to these psychotherapists of the internet, social workers of the internet. How do you deal with this? How do you stay emotionally detached when you see someone crumbling in front of you? Oh, it’s literally how my brain started. So, I’m kind of curious because you say about helping yourself. How do you do that, I guess you can, but how do you do that? How do you avoid yourself from getting that? Like getting past that? Getting emotionally invested in that way? I’m just curious. It’s a little bit of deviation but I’m really interested in your opinion.


EVA FORDE: Yeah, sure. I’ll share a little bit of my personal opinion first.

TAMAR: Sure, sure.

 EVA FORDE: When I came into social work, we went to like a little field trip. This is like social work Class 101. And we went on a field trip to the county jail in Huntsville, Alabama. It was not hard labor, wasn’t anything like that. And I went in with my classmates, so maybe there were 12 of us or something. And I was sobbing, like, I was meeting these men, and I was just sobbing, and my classmates were like, “What’s going on with you?” And  I was like, “Are you here?” I was really having a hard time. And I was like, “How am I going to do this profession, I can’t even just observe what the state of our social systems are, without breaking down.” So, for me, it’s been a process of learning to appreciate what I can control and what I can’t control. And what I tell my students? Well, I used to teach what I used to tell my students and what I tell people now is, my name is not Jesus Christ. It’s Eva Forde. I am not anyone’s savior. And I think what happens is, if we’re honest with ourselves, it’s our ego that wants to, or that needs to save people or feel like we are just making this huge difference and without this person the situation can’t be resolved. And it’s not to say that we’re turning our back on people or on causes that we care about, nothing like that. But it is just to recognize that all of us in this life are all interconnected, there are dynamics at play that we don’t necessarily understand. And it is not our responsibility to fix every situation. Everyone cannot do it. And we do ourselves a disservice first, and when we do ourselves a disservice, then we ultimately do others a disservice, as well, and end up circumventing anything that we actually wanted to do in the first place. So, we do ourselves a disservice when we overextend ourselves, and when we don’t prioritize our well-being first. And another book that I read, called The Science of Getting Rich by Wallace Wattles says in essence, like, “Look, you can’t help people in poverty,” and again, this is from the financial perspective, but it can be applied across different perspectives. You can’t help people in poverty by focusing on poverty or thinking about poverty. You can only help people to come out of that by focusing on where they can be. And the way you do that is you show them so you have to be that for yourself, let them see you. You can help to guide and direct, but you’ve got to be the one in a better situation than the person that you would like to be the example for. So, it’s been a profit, it’s definitely been a learning process for me. But I’ve also had enough experience of going in the opposite direction and trying to help people and then seeing it blow up in my face that it’s like, “Now I know how this situation is going to end, so I know that if I care about you and your situation more than you do, I’m going to be the one that is frustrated and disappointed and burnt out at the end and you’re still going to be there. Probably complaining about what’s not right in your life, but you’re also not going to be doing anything differently. So, I’ve learned my lessons.


TAMAR: Okay. Yeah, I find it hard to stop myself. It’s just the emotions. That’s why I minor in psychology. Definitely I’m passionate about it. But I also know that I get carried away. I guess that’s  usually how I have this addictive personality. It’s why I’ve never tried smoking. It’s funny. I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine. And I said I don’t smoke. I don’t know if I could  control myself and he was trying to like say, “Well, I know I can control myself.” I’m like, “Okay, that’s not me.”


The first time this happened to me, my friend tried to introduce me to somebody who was depressed in college and she knew I was depressed. She’s like, “You overcame, how can you help her?” I became latched  to that depression. I was like I can help her in so many ways. And then this happened again, after I had my kids. I knew I had my guard up because of what happened the first time. But yeah, I guess it started falling down because of the depression. That postpartum depression that I was suffering. And then eventually it just hit itself again. And it’s really hard, it’s really hard to maintain.


EVA FORDE: I don’t approach it with, I can help you this way. My approach I cannot help you Only you can help you. I can listen to you, I can hold space for you, I can empathize. But I can’t help you. I can share my experience with you but I can’t help you. As a social worker, I know how to find resources, where to maybe get physical help. Like, if you need food or a wheelchair, or psychological services, I can maybe help you or point you in the direction of where to get that kind of help. But I cannot help you. And it’s not my job to help you. What I can do is hold space for you. And hopefully point you in the direction of how you can help yourself or find the strength within yourself or finding answers within yourself because that’s the best help I can give you, to teach you how to fish for yourself. That’s the best gift I can give you.

TAMAR: Yeah.

EVA FORDE: Because then you’ll have it.


TAMAR: Yeah, good. It’s hard. I guess for me, I just can’t figure that out. But I’m glad you were able to. I’m glad there are people out there who know to basically set those boundaries that some of us are not strong enough to do or at least at times that we don’t have the strength to handle. So, I guess it’s sort of the reason why I asked it in the context of you saying, like, “I wasn’t taking care of myself.” I think there’s always places where we feel like we fall. For me, that’s my weakness. But again, you know how to overcome that. I don’t think you’re going to be repeating that because you’ve figured out you’ve hit some certain milestones, you’ve read some books, you’ve empowered yourself, and you’ve gained the knowledge to avoid those pitfalls. I think it’s different for all of us in that way.


EVA FORDE: Yeah, I think Tony Robbins has a saying.


TAMAR: You follow all the people I follow. So, I like it.


EVA FORDE: Yeah. So, we don’t change anything until it’s a must for us to change, right? Until it’s so painful for us to change that we change. So, I, I’m hearing you, and what just comes up for me is like, there is something there that you’re benefiting from. So even though it may be painful, the repercussions, there’s some benefits that you’re getting that outweighs the pain. But again,  I’m not a therapist.


TAMAR: Yeah. My therapy. The problem  I saw there, those two times that I sought therapy is that they never quite see it. They see it when you’re ready to it. You’re hitting your rock bottom. There’s no easy way to pull you out of it. It’s hard. It’s hard. It’s so hard. Definitely,  one of the biggest challenges of my life is just that. That particular component.




TAMAR: So, I feel like you’re reading and what do you absorb, what you’ve learned, the people you surround yourself with, in the context of the words that they were reading from them. I assume that there’s also the communication, all those things in aggregate are a big part of that self-care and self-focus that you have talked about. Talk about how you do that. Tell me a little bit more about the story.


EVA FORDE: I just want  to be clear on what you’re asking in terms of my self-care?

TAMAR: Yeah. I think for you mentally you were able to bring yourself out of a rut through reading, like Napoleon Hill.

EVA FORDE: Oh, my God.

TAMAR: Which is amazing. So, it’s not only that. Like the first group of people that I’ve interviewed in the context of the Common Scents podcast, were people, women who were runners, and most of those women, obviously, their self-care was running.  Like, what do you do to keep yourself above water? How do you focus on yourself? How do you give time for yourself?


EVA FORDE: So, a friend of mine, while I was in Jamaica; she  was there also. I was from the US, she was from the UK. But both of us had to meet and we had become friends on the island. I think it was a Sunday, she came to visit me or something. And she was like, “So what are you doing tomorrow?” And of course, the following day was a work day. And so, I was like, “Oh, I’ve got papers to grade” and this and that. And so that so much to do, I don’t even want to think about it. And I said, “What are you doing tomorrow, on a Monday?” And she said, “Oh, I think I’m going to have a pedicure, and then I’ll probably wash my hair, she has really long, long hair. And then I’ll go to the store and get an afternoon snack or something. And it was just a day of leisure. And my mouth literally dropped. And I was like, “How can you do that on a Monday. I want that life.” And she said, “You can have it” very matter of factly. Like, you can have it. And so, she’s just planned it out. And that was such a sticking point for me because I thought I can have it; I can do that. And I started to think, “Okay, if I can have that, what do I have to do to have that? What steps do I need to take? Like, how long is it going to take, I had no idea how long was it going to take. It took a long time for me, because I’m a slow learner. But like I said, when we started this conversation now, “Oh, my gosh, I can be wherever I want to be, I can work from anywhere.” And so, what it looked like for me was having a vision for what I wanted my life to look like. And it’s the concept of life design that I got from a book called The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss.

TAMAR: Yep. Another book I read.

EVA FORDE: Another book, right.


TAMAR: Another book I know.


EVA FORDE: Yeah. So, this concept of life design, and he talks a lot about automating your life and working online and actually putting a dollar amount to the things that you want to do. That means you have to have a clear vision or idea of what you want your life to look like and then putting a dollar amount to that. So instead of having a two-week vacation, what if you could create a life where you don’t need a vacation from that. And that’s what I’ve been able to create. So, self-care, for me, is my lifestyle. But again, it’s something that I’ve to build in. And I didn’t have this for a long time. And I just finished doing an interview for my YouTube channel, Rich Social Worker, and the person that I interviewed, talked about how early on, she made sacrifices. But now she gets to have her own practice and buy seven acres up in Massachusetts, in the middle of a pandemic, and like do all kinds of things that other people who did not prepare and who weren’t intentional about what they wanted their future to look like. They don’t have those options now, right? It doesn’t mean that it’s too late to start looking at that now. But just to answer your question,  I set my own schedule. I work when I want because I like the work that I do, which might mean that I might work more than eight hours in a day, but then I might take two entire days off after that, or I might only work three days or two days for the week. You know what I mean? So, I really believe in this lifestyle design, especially going back to my mom who passed away at 42 and didn’t have the opportunity, didn’t have the chance. In fact, she worked until she couldn’t work anymore because she was too sick. I don’t want to have to work because I have to work to pay a medical bill. God bless her. She was doing her best; it was the 80s. Even my dad, he was 84 and he just stopped working because of the pandemic. And again, not because he retired with a big send off, but because there was a pandemic. Yeah. So, I’m just like, that is not going to be me. I refuse. And I think that’s what it comes down to. People have to decide that they are important enough and their wellbeing comes first, even before your kids, before your partner, before your work. You have to put yourself first. I don’t care what that is. Think back to what you were doing or what you wanted to do when you were a kid. Have fun, be ruthless and relentless about it. You know what this life that you want to live? What that looks like for you and plan it out, like get there, make decisions strategized, get around people who are already doing that and figure out what they’re doing to do that, might mean investing more in your 401k. It might mean getting a second job. Like, I don’t know what the path is for everybody. But my path was online business.


TAMAR: Yeah. Awesome. I love it. I love it. I love it. Cool. So, to that end, you probably have some interesting answer. I have one final question that I don’t warn people about in advance, because I’d love to hear that you’ve seemed to have and you might even have the answer there. If you can give an earlier version of yourself a piece of advice, what would you tell her?


EVA FORDE: So, I have many earlier versions of myself. And I’m an ENFP. So, for people who know Myers Briggs MBTI.

TAMAR: Yeah. That’s not me. That’s something I can’t relate to you on.


EVA FORDE: You cannot?


TAMAR: No, I am like INFP. Orion. Yeah. I don’t remember I always write it down because it changes. But let me find out.

EVA FORDE: Yeah, so as an ENFP, I don’t have a problem like letting loose. So as far as self-care goes, I think  I’ve always been someone to look for the fun. I would have said, “Hey, earlier version of Eva, you need to learn about money. And you need to learn just how to be smart with money, money management; learn some higher-level concepts about money, learn how it works, not just what they tell you in the bank, but really kind of digging into financial awareness.” And I think it’s good advice for everyone. Because if you have money, then you can self-care better, and you can give to causes and things that you care about. And you can just support the people that you care about and love. Like, I think understanding how money works is an advantage, even if you don’t use that knowledge. So, like I learned how to drive a stick shift. And I loved driving stick shift, but I learned how to drive a stick shift because I said, if I know how to drive a stick, I can drive anything else. Yeah, so that’s why I feel like understanding money is like learning how to drive a stick shift. Because if you understand money, then it makes everything else just that much easier.


TAMAR: Cool, awesome. It’s amazing to do stuff like that. So where can we find you?


EVA FORDE: Yeah, so for people that love Instagram, my Instagram is  richsocialworker. And it’s not a free Instagram. That’s not where I do all the editing. I do all of the publications over on and as well. And here’s the thing, I don’t talk about social work on the channel. I talk about business; I talk about entrepreneurship. I talked about having a wealth mentality. I talked about self-care and empowerment, and I talk about things that hopefully will make people see themselves as contributors. Hopefully it also sheds light on the fact that they are worthy and deserving as well. And some of the things that they do just to give themselves an advantage.


TAMAR: Cool, awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been really enlightening. I’m glad you’ve picked yourself up from what was clearly a rough spot and you put yourself in a position of like, all the right people and it really does wonders for you for the way you feel like those books. I know people are averse to reading but like those books make you feel better as a person and usually it manifests in your actions. So, I want people to get that takeaway as well. That it might actually benefit you to read these things. It puts you in a mitt like I have read it during my depression. I read The Secret, I read Think and Grow Rich during depression, and it puts you in a better place. Obviously, you have to sustain that. I eventually fell again, while I was depressed. But like those moments really brought me into this place where I was like this extraordinarily important. So that’s what I would like to say, surround yourself with those voices. And I promise you, eventually there will be a time where you’ll say, “Yeah, I should have listened.”

EVA FORDE: Absolutely. Absolutely.


TAMAR: Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been great.

EVA FORDE: You’re welcome.


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